Is This Smut? with Katie Frey

Elle 0:01
Katie Frey was always meant to write romance. She romanticized everything since she was a kid dreaming up impossible situations brave heroines deserving counterparts. After turning 35 last year, she decided it was time to make it happen. Her first manuscript behind her she is now working on the other bits of fun that go along with being a writer in the year 2021. Like Twitter. I don't know if I'd call that fun. But there you go. These days, you're likely to find her in the forest chasing her two little gremlin daughters as in a coffee shop trying hard not to eat pork croissants in one sitting because let's be real one croissant is a child's portion. And I agree with that, fully. She works in the family businesses a day job designing fairy dresses and tools to encourage imagination through play, which is you can find that at great pretenders.ca for nightlife. That's when the fun begins. And sadly, no, she is not only talking about the cherish time with our hunky husband these days, she's pretty excited for alone time with her laptop, getting the stories out instead of pretending to like watching soccer. welcome Katie to steam soons

Katie 1:08
Thank you so much for having me.

Elle 1:11
That's quite a bio.

Katie 1:14
Yes, well, I'm just glad that I didn't have to fake it through another World Cup.

Elle 1:18
That's really something. Yeah. I'm very curious about your day job, actually.

Katie 1:27
Okay, um,

Elle 1:30
What is the fairy dresses and tools to encourage imagination through play? That sounds actually really interesting.

Katie 1:37
Well, it is kind of cool. My mom started a company when I was a kid, she was an engineer. Back in the day, one of I think two females were confirmed Magna International. And she was frustrated by the lack of toys that were gender neutral in the marketplace when I was born. And so she thought she would make her own and sell her amazing idea to Mattel and be really rich. And 35 years later, and no one's bought it yet. But the the flip side of that is that she's grown her idea that started in our basement into a brand that's distributed around the world. So it's pretty cool. My husband and I managed the European division. So we Okay, kind of go and see toy shops and bring the designs all over Europe. And no, it's it's really fun. You know, it's really like, yeah, against, like, plastic play just very into like fabrics and costumes. And, yeah,

Elle 2:34
that's actually a really great day job. And it feels like something that sort of lends itself well to writer.

Katie 2:42
Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Because I can like, make my own schedule, and I work from home. And, you know, it's it's kind of when you're feeling creative, you can write

Elle 2:55
that and sort of Yeah, like, that's the thing that sort of, like ticks a lot of creative boxes, I think. Yeah. You know, yeah. At what point you know, you said, you turned 35. And you decided that, you know, this was the year you were gonna make the writing happen, like, at what point? Were you always a writer? Did you dabble like at what point? Arch?

Katie 3:21
This was about a year ago. So we had just kind of gotten into the, into COVID into lockdown. And every year I am, I used to, I have this very cool journal, which I super recommend to people that I used to journal religiously. And when I was thinking about what I would talk about, I thought I'd talk about that, because I, you know, I thought to myself convinced that like people would want it one day, I would use these sort of adolescent journals as like tools to have information to write about when I'm later, a grown up in a real writer. And I can tell you, these journals are so boring, unimaginably boring. It's really, it's really, really dull. And I mean, it was my life. So I can't imagine that anyone would be interested in reading these journals. But as I grew older, I happened on Chronicle Books. And they made a journal called just one line a day, which is imagine like a book, kind of like an agenda that has a page for every day of the year. And then there's like, kind of five paragraphs. And the idea is you write one line every day. And then the following year, you go back to the beginning of the book, and you write a second line every day, you know, and then by year four, you can go back and see what did you write about four years ago? Wow. Yeah, it's really cool. And that's kind of wild. And it's also like very low commitment. When you have children. You're just like, I'm gonna write this one line. And I can, you know,

Elle 4:40
One line is quick. So like, the one line when you go back to like, a year later that day, right. Yeah. It can be any line. Are you sort of like playing off of the line you wrote the year before?

Katie 4:53
I don't know. Like, it just, you know, whatever my line from February 6: still sick; 11am on the slopes for day three of the sunny spring skiing; very expensive dinner 175 francs. I somehow thought that would be something that I needed to remember, I'm probably thinking now I should have picked a steamier line for this podcast. And look back and see like, serve children frozen fruit for dinner. Like really random notes, but you can kind of see where you were a year ago or three years ago or five years ago. Yeah, it's cool. And then I've done that.

Elle 5:34
That's pretty wild. And I'm sorry.

Katie 5:37
Okay, I've been doing this for years. Where this where this came from was on my birthday, I am I usually spend on my birthday on On New Year's I write down resolutions, and I carry over the resolutions that I don't hit. And I mean, in this poor little journal, every year it was I'm going to write a book this year, I'm going to write a book this year, I'm going to and I keep recopying. And I was like, Oh, this is so depressing. So that when I when I turned 35, I said, Okay, then I'm going to write a book this year. And that's kind of where it came from, just from having written it down. So many times, I figured, okay, let's, let's give it a go.

Elle 6:13
So did you always sort of like growing up want to be a writer, and you just ended up in this other career? Because it was like the family business? Or, you know, so where were you kind of, you

Katie 6:24
I think I was, like, to be honest, I think that I, you know, my first book that I wrote about his, I kind of talk about identity. It's about twins. And anyway, through a high jinks, they end up swapping identities, and it raises the question of like, if you pretend to be somebody else in another way, are you in fact, more yourself than you would otherwise be? Because if you fail at that thing, you're pretending it's not you failing, it's, it's this person that you're pretending to be failing. So this kind of question that first book is like, actually, sometimes if you pretend to be someone else, are you in fact, more yourself than you would otherwise dare. And I almost think writing for me was that way, I think I never wanted to be a writer, because if I never tried at it, I could never fail at it. And it was almost like, too important to me to fail that. So as long as like, I'm not writing because, like, too busy, I have kids I running a marathon, whatever. It wasn't, because I wasn't good enough, you know, and I think that was something and then I finally turned old enough to be like, Okay, well, maybe I'm not good enough. I'm not gonna not do it. Because I'm afraid to fail. Even if it's super important to me. And, and,

Elle 7:43
yeah,

Katie 7:44
And here we are. Yeah. I mean, I honestly was expecting it to be to take longer than it took to kind of gain purchase and, and have success as an author, you know, so I'm pretty excited. And I wish I'd started sooner. So my advice to anybody out there is pick up a pen and go now because, um, it's better to fail at something you love than not try it because you're scared.

Elle 8:11
Yeah, I feel I sort of, I feel, I feel like there's, I feel like two ways about this, like, on the one hand, it's like, you know, if you haven't tried, like, you've already failed, if you don't try, right, like that's sort of like a how I sort of like work things out in my head. I'm like, well, Haven't I already failed? If I didn't try on the other part of it, too, is I couldn't have written. I don't think I could have done this at 20. I don't think I had the maturity. I don't think I had the you know, I don't think that I was ready to sort of like, let go of my own ideals. Like, like, I don't think I am. I tried very hard not to be precious with my writing. So like, my editor says, this sucks. And I'm like, okay, it sucks. So let's fix it. When I was in, you know, when I was 20. I think I would have been like, no, of course it I wrote that. It doesn't sock. Yeah. It's a very different mindset, you know?

Katie 9:10
Yeah. But I think I think also like, there's a lot of rejection that comes along with writing. And so I think, you know, you got to get your you got to just get nice and thick before you take that on. So So

Elle 9:23
do you remember the first romance book you ever read? So

Katie 9:27
I do. I am. I was at Sonia Christian School, which is a grade school in my hometown. I forget the actual name of it, but I was uh, spent a lot of time in the library. And I had found a I'm probably pronouncing this wrong but Jeanette Okie, like, I was a voracious reader. I read all the time acts I was a big nerd. And after I finished a Little House on the Prairie, I was kind of into this like, you know, that all the Judy bloom and all the rest of it and then I got on to Jeanette, okie and the lovely sawfly series. Ah, I don't know. Do you remember that?

Elle 10:05
I actually believe it. I saw a miniseries. That was when

Katie 10:09
Katherine Heigl Yes. Yeah. So, I actually stole that book from the library. I told confession, I stole it I still have it like whenever I move because I like I carry such shame that like I stole this book from a library and even as a kid, I would I brought other books back and I would kind of leave them in the library, you know, like offset my thieving, but I still have the love comes softly that I that I stole it was a clean historical Christian romance. Yes. I I am not religious, so but that was what I could get. So I loved it. And from there, I moved on to Victoria Holt, and I recently got into Outlander, Outlander series. I am pretty far down that rabbit hole. Yeah.

Elle 11:08
So this is really funny because you write contemporary. Yeah, you read historical.

Katie 11:12
Yeah, yeah, it is kind of weird. But basically, I watched the Netflix er, of Outlander. And my really super liked it. Sam Huion is everything Jamie Fraser is my husband. I actually had a serious conversation with my husband after I signed with Harley Quinn. And he was like, tell me now like, did you start writing so that you could become famous and licensed your books? So that you could meet Sam human? Like, is that what this is about? Like, I want to thank you for believing. get licensed and kind of Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. If you're listening, I'm really funny and at the moment, but we can talk

Elle 12:07
so what drew you to romance? I mean, you were drawn to it. I guess you were drawn to the historical accident and kind of accidentally stumbled?

Katie 12:14
Yeah, I am. I'm a you know, I think everybody who writes romance is a real sucker for the happy ever after and a big step in like a big sap in real life. And, you know, everything that's so depressing going on, and all the everyone in Switzerland, they have a dinner party here, which is where I'm from, and everyone's like, Oh, what do you think about this? You know, the Iran deal? And I'm like, okay, so heavy, like to calm down? How many? Can we like, Can we not talk about nuclear disarmament? It's a Thursday. You know, I kind of you know, people make fun of me, because they think, Oh, you're, you know, it's funny that someone like you would read Romans, and I'm like, I'm offended by that. I'm like, What is that supposed to mean?

Elle 12:59
Yeah, you know, someone like yeah, I'm

Katie 13:01
like, I don't like that. And I think that there's, you know, a lot of people think like, romance isn't highbrow writing, you know, and and I don't I'm ready to turn that on its head. I don't know if I believe that. So I thought yeah, I'm gonna write write romance. And that was a big thing for me too, was when I you know, clicked publish. I self published my first book and now I have signed a two book deal with Harlequin and I had to send over on their contract like what not what name do you want? You know, what pen name do you want? This is a big, big discussion and Harlequin desire, you know, there they weren't two scenes on the page, you know, explicit, whatever. And, and I thought to myself, hmm, like, what what name do I put down on this contract? And it was kind of a seminal moment for me when I was like, No, you know what, not going to use my name because I'm really proud of what I'm doing and I think hell yeah, I write romance and yes, Harlequin desire I will make it steamy for you. No, apologies. There is no Yeah, absolutely. So there it is.

Elle 14:12
So now your first your first book was self pubbed. And was that the first one you wrote? Was that the one you started?

Katie 14:18
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I started writing in less May and I pulled the trigger in in actually a year later in May. And because I'd wanted to have some sort of books in the in the funnel I guess you could say to try and rapid release like a lot of news are doing and but the the second kind of book I had prepped, I pitched to Harlequin into their slush pile, thinking that you know, that's unlikely because I think less than about half a percent of of an agented authors are making it out of the slush pile for the harlequin umbrella and that's the last stat I read. So I thought you know, I'll just put it in there. And then if I don't you Back in six months, I'll I'll publish it myself. And then I heard back. And wow, kind of random but kind of amazing.

Elle 15:09
So how long did it take them? Just out of curiosity?

Katie 15:12
I submitted the first week of Feb. And I heard mid March, but six weeks later, that's really quick. Yeah, yeah. Or maybe it was actually the 31st of January. And I heard back about six weeks later. Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty awesome. So.

Elle 15:27
So is this sort of tie is the the book that's coming out now that's being published by Harlequin? Is that tied to the book that you self published? Or the complete stand? alones? They have nothing to do.

Katie 15:38
Harlequin had a call for westerns. So I thought what the hell, I'll write a Western. And so I binge watched Yellowstone. And how is that

Elle 15:47
it's so like, on my it's on my list to watch, but I don't think I can, is it streaming anywhere? Because that's like, I have no way to watch anything less.

Katie 15:55
So it's, it's not. So in Switzerland, you can like watch the illegal streaming sites. And it's not like you're not here. Yeah, it's like kind of allowed. And so I may have done that.

Elle 16:07
May or may not have done that. Okay.

Katie 16:12
I don't know. Allegedly gonna use. I allegedly. I don't know. But yeah, I there's like a cowboy that I think kind of looks like my husband. And a lot of people think I'm delusional, and they might, they might not be wrong, but I claimed that delusion. I was like, it's kind of like my husband. I can totally lust after that guy in front of my husband. And so yeah, but I like to I mean, Kevin Costner is the kind of head of the family and he's a baby. Even in his 60s, I guess in this in the filming, I thought, okay. All right.

Elle 16:50
60s, oh, my God. I know. Wild to think about that. You know,

Katie 16:55
I know. I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

Elle 17:00
So what was your fruit? Now? What was your first book, The one yourself pumped? That was was that sweet romance?

Katie 17:07
I mean, I really struggle with this, like how to how to classify steam? I mean, even when you get into sweet romance, and like, how far are they allowed to go? I mean, I don't know. There was definitely a second it was a little bit fade to black, I would say. Okay, but I think in sweet romance, like you got to be totally clean. Right? Like, I don't know. Right. Right. I struggled. I was definitely like in the I would say it was Fade to black. But okay, you know, with a lot of illusions. Ryan, alluding like crazy to stuff happening. And I don't think you're technically allowed to do that for the like, I don't know. It wouldn't have made it, it wouldn't have made it in my grade school library. I'll tell you that.

Elle 17:52
But for all Harlequin, you have to like you, you it's got to be there.

Katie 17:57
They didn't buy my book off the off the cuff. I got a an email from the senior acquiring editor saying I loved this book. But you need to have it on the page for our brand. Right. So and it has to be at least twice in the book. And so I was like, okay, she said, if you're willing to make those revisions, then you could send it directly to my email and not work through Submittable and all the rest of it, but we didn't need to see it on the page. So I was like, okay, challenge accepted. And I went for it. And in that that was the version that she bought. Yeah. Wow. Okay. But it was, like, out of the frying pan. The fire was like, Okay, go for it. Like, I have a chance to sell this book to the one of the largest publishers in the world, you know, I'll take it.

Elle 18:48
So what was that? Like? It was?

Katie 18:51
For me it was I did face a little bit of like, my uncle's gonna read this. You know, everyone who went to high school is going to read this. How's that gonna go? And then, man, I was like, Well, I hope they think it's hot. Like, because I'm writing it. And

Elle 19:12
do you know what brought about that mindset shift? Or was it just like, you just had like, a minute of like, OSHA, the OSHA minute and they were like, Okay, here we go.

Katie 19:21
Yeah, I think just I mean, I would I mean, you've you've obviously read the scenes, I think that they're not, you know, they're not lewd. I would say I tried to stay on like the end. There's definitely more explicit then than what I'm writing. You know, definitely on the on the romance side of erotica, I would say, for sure. So I tried to I sort of made the decision to keep it really about how does this moment move the plot forward? How does this moment like raise the stakes for each character? When I'm raising the stakes, like, like, how am I translating that into the scene? So So that's that's what I did.

Elle 20:03
Right? Okay, cool. Yeah. And do you feel I mean, this is this is kind of like, I feel like this is like an awkward phrasing. But like, because I know what I want to ask, but for some reason I can't quite find the words for it was the question did your writing at all changed when you decided to add in steam? But I mean, your writing is not going to change the style is not going to change. But I guess it's sort of like, I guess maybe what changed in terms of how you were writing these moments? So does that make sense? Tony, I

Katie 20:31
think I understand what you mean. So if you can imagine that. So I started with nearly wed, which is my sort of first first bug. And that I would say is more or less fade to black like my, my, you know, I've definitely had the feedback like we wish so you'd let that go on a little longer, you know, and I'm like, okay, okay, I understand. Then I write this Harlequin, and I have to boom, make sure, make sure I have at least two scenes. I think I ended up with three. And then in the sequel to nearly wed, which is sort of the same story. But from the other twins perspective. Nearly her, the other twins a lot more confident. And so she tends to lead with sex a lot more. And given that I had just gotten out of this Harlequin glitzy desire book, I just went for it with the second book, and I kind of didn't frame the character's decisions by the kind of book I wanted to write instead, I just said, okay, like, if she's the kind of person that would, you know, use sex to stop a conversation, I'm going to do that right now and see what happens. And then if, you know, they're together in this chateau, or what have you, I'm going to just let them do what comes naturally. And then let's see what the consequences are and work that into the plot. So I'd say definitely that taking away any kind of, I don't know, barrier or framework that I might have been sticking to beforehand to stay on the cleaner side of steam. Definitely allowed me to follow the story in a different way. I would say okay, yeah, that makes sense. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. ridiculous answer. But there you go.

Elle 22:11
No, no, no, no, not at all. So I guess maybe, maybe it's not the question of why did you start reading steam? It's more of the question, why did why you didn't in the first place. Why you did Fade to black?

Katie 22:22
Yeah, I think I was worried about what people would think about it, really. And I didn't, like I'm, I really didn't want to use a pseudonym. I really wanted to be able to put my name on it. Like, they're definitely after my children. My books are like, the things I'm the most proud of. Right. So I want to be able to say I wrote this, and I was I was written, I also, you know, worried if I if I maybe get into women's fiction, or, you know, literary fiction? How is it going to look having this sort of, I think maybe I had a little bit of concern about is this is this high brow enough? And if I, if I make it steamy? Is it? Is it highbrow enough that I would say it's mine, like be proud that it's mine, if that makes sense? I think for me, it was really about that it was about like, is this something I'm going to look back on when I'm 50 and be like, that was a that was a great book I wrote. And I think maybe part of me thought if I if I make it too steamy, then it won't be this great book I wrote, it'll be sort of trendy piece of fiction that I won't be as proud of and that I think was just something for me to work through. And when I wrote it, when I when I wrote the harlequin and I was really proud of it after you know, when I actually like, I wonder. I thought the Harley Quinn was the best thing I've ever written until I worked on nearly her and now I'm like, that's the best thing I've ever written. I did not, I totally do not suffer from imposter syndrome. I'm amazing. So, you know, I think that I just had to do it before I realized like, this isn't a sleazy thing. This is a really great book. And I will definitely be proud of it when I'm 50. So cool. leanin Yeah.

Elle 24:09
Okay, so you have your marching orders from Harlequin. And they're like, We love your book. I mean, we just need to see it on the page and you're like, Okay, I can do this and you sit down at your desk and you have to write the first one. What was that?

Katie 24:21
Yeah, so first I watched season one episode seven of Outlander.

Elle 24:29
Very specific you

Katie 24:35
I actually have a GIF loop or a GIF loop on my on my Instagram. You guys can all go and look at it. You're welcome. So I just like watch that about 30 times and then was like Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready. No one come in here. Don't ruin this for me. But yeah, I also highly recommend Episode Seven. anybody listening? should definitely get okay

Elle 24:59
I don't What happened in Episode Seven?

Katie 25:02
They get married?

Elle 25:03
Okay. Oh, it's the weddings. Yeah. Okay, got it. Okay, now I remember that one.

Katie 25:08
Yeah. All right, watch that a lot. And one thing I liked about that scene is that they don't just get to the sex. It's really I like the conversation in between. I like the sort of revelations that you had about each character. I, I thought, Okay, well, that's awesome. And I'm obviously I'm obviously wrong, but everything I thought was right. So, so yes,

Elle 25:38
yeah, I guess I mean, there's a lot more to it than just that sort of choreography, right? Of like, insert this into the slot, a PSP or whatever, whatever. Yeah. And there's just it's a very different thing. Because I think that, um, when you talk about sex scenes, there's a very sort of like, I don't know, almost like literal, like, like, there is this very, I don't know, almost. machine like quality, you know what I mean? Like assembly line, sort of thoughts going on about it. But in actuality, there's a lot more to it than simply the action of sex.

Katie 26:17
Yeah. I worried like, how am I gonna do at making each one different? That was something that that occurred to me, like, especially, you know, it started with the harlequins. I ended up I think I had three men, Harlequin, and I was like, how am I going to make this vastly different from the first time that they do it? Or, you know, what, what's going to change in this scene? Or how is this sex going to be so so different than whatever the next sex scene so that it, you know, it stays exciting for people that are reading it? You know,

Elle 26:52
and how did you work through that?

Katie 26:53
Well, I wrote a letter to the producers of Outlander and told them to try harder. No, just like, I can't keep watching episode seven, I need to move on from this. Like, no, I don't know I. I thought about, I like to think about who has the power? You know, because it to me, there's also an element of power and sex, something about who has the power in this interaction? And how can I change that? So that's something that I always think about? And I like to think about, like, what does somebody have to lose? You're like, what, why are we doing this? Because they both want each other? That's a bit simple. You know, there's got to be something more, right. So like, either they're looking for validation, either they're looking for, you know, whatever, you know, whatever it is, they, they want to forget, they want to stop hurting, they want, you know, to lose themselves for a second, and if so, why? You know, all that kind of stuff. So I try and change it up with each interaction. And I especially like, when there's an opportunity to lead up to it almost like breadcrumbs. So I like when, you know, it starts with a text message. And then, you know, maybe a scene goes by, but you know, they're both thinking about it, even in the interaction in between the text message, and then the event, if you will. So that's something I try and I try to think about it as if I was choreographing a dance, you know, you've got like that sort of Prelude and you've got the first act and then you've got the kind of chorus and then the finale.

Elle 28:39
You there's a very much in the scene that you sent over to me, that was very much the slow burn quality to it. Where, you know, I know you really took your time. Yeah, I was like, wow,

Katie 28:51
I think that's also like a definitely a style for me. So in all my like, I say all my books that I've written a lot. Oh my God, in the three books that I've done. That are steamy, you know, like the harlequin, I think they do it in chapter, maybe 12 of 20. In Nearly Her it's chapter 11 of 28. And then they don't do it again until Chapter 17. You know, so it's really like, and then of course, like chapter 18, Chapter 19 Chapter 20. You know, like, it's lots, but it's you got to work for it. Yeah, you gotta wait. And then you're like, Wait, is this smut? And you're like, This doesn't feel right.

Elle 29:37
Wait, what did I just read?

Katie 29:39
Like, my editor was like, This feels like too much and I was like, it's fine.

Elle 29:46
There's such a thing as too much realized.

Katie 29:49
She's like, this is unnecessary. I was like, it's necessary. They're outside. It's a forest. It's necessary. A mom so it's, it's fun. But I definitely I definitely am a fan. Like, I like the slow burn. And I I've played around with, you know, Harlequin have a blind eye on my second book. So I'm, I'm thinking about like, what's the second one going to be? And I thought about, do you start it with that one night stand that, you know, everybody regrets, you know, and I've really played with that. But I think that for me, the way I am leaning into the sex scenes, it's heavier when you have some, when you understand the stakes a little bit more than you can in that sort of first 10 Pages for me just like the way that I'm writing. So anyway, that's yeah, that's, I guess I have some growing to do in my smutch ability. Now that I've decided to lean in.

Elle 30:45
It's really, I mean, for like, for me, when I write the sex scenes, especially, you know, this is probably like a revelation that I've come to in the past six months actually took a course in writing, not writing, it was actually about relate intimacy and relationship and sex coaching. So I kind of like droite, like really drilled down to like certain things. And one of the things that sort of stuck out to me from the class is that sex is a form of healing. And so I was like, Ooh, and then I was like, it was like, I was just like, ding, ding, ding. And I was like, Okay, that was worth the price of admission here to just sort of, like, get that, because I knew, you know, it has to for the characters journey. Oh, it has to propel the plot forward. Oh, it has to do all of these things. But then, that always felt weird to me, like that never just felt right. Like it was kind of like, so sex as a plot device? Ah, you know, well, I don't quite get that. Because

Katie 31:38
then how long are the books that you're writing? Probably about 80,000 80,000. So 80,000 words, like doesn't it need to be a plot device? And I found like, I struggled to like, get from A to B. If I have too much filler? Like I I like that to mean something. Because then it's making it's really packing the punch in my next chapters, you know?

Elle 32:00
Yeah, I'm not sure though, what you're saying in terms of plot device them? Because it sort of feels like I mean, yeah, but ultimately, if it's, if it's about the characters and sort of their growth, and I'm just using it as a plot device, that doesn't really make any sense.

Katie 32:16
Yeah, I mean, I don't think I don't like foresee, I don't think that I I never studied writing. So don't fight to leave and understand the plot device. But like, what I what I mean is like, I want them to discover something. I don't know. Like, for me, when I write these scenes. I want there to be a ramification after that first time. For me, it's the first time is the most important one, the first time that they have sex on the page. If it's the hero and the heroine or the hero in the hero, whatever. To me, it has to be that moment of okay, now everything is different. Like we just flipped things on their heads because this thing like it, because in romance, the whole story is going that heavy happily ever after. Right? So you would think, okay, they have sex. That's, that's their their right? Because everybody's happy if you're doing it right. But that can't be them being happy. And you're doing it right, because that's not the end of the book, typically. So right. If it's not the end of the book, there has to be some other side of it. You know, that that's the ramification of them doing it, right? Because if it's so, so good. I just maybe I haven't read enough romance?

Elle 33:28
No, I think I think that I get what you're saying. I think that we're looking at plot devices, two very different things. Yeah. You know what I mean, like, to me plot devices, sort of, like you can't have a detective like a murder mystery without a murder. Right? So um, but you can have a romance book without the sex. So it's sort of like okay, so then if you can do that, then what is the sex doing? And so I guess, you know, to sort of started start off a book with a bang, like literally and have them having sex right away. I think actually, that does really speak to the characters in a in a certain way. Because they're doing let's say that one night stand and what does that one night stand do for them? Like, what is that healing moment of that one night?

Katie 34:11
Oh, no, you totally can. I just didn't know how to write it. Like I just wouldn't know how to write that one. It's in like, because the way I tend to do it, it's always like really these heavy moments are these like, Revelations almost like reverence that I think you you can't have. I mean, all this comes down without that. I probably haven't had enough one nightstands to write about good one. I think that's, you know, I'm coming back to this Sam human if you're listening to up my ante, let's do it. But um, I think, you know, for me, it's they they end up in the middle of the book because I understand how the sex is going to affect those relationships better at that point, you know, and then I can that I can say, okay, you know, she's lying about who she is. He knows that she's lying about who she is they have sex anyway. What does that even mean? Does that mean that who they are isn't important? Or that they're lying is less relevant than how much they want each other? Or does it mean that she thinks he wouldn't want her if he knew who she was? Or that what she's done is so terrible that he wouldn't forgive her if he like, you know what I mean? That all these really interesting questions that as a writer, I can then dig into, you know, so that's like what I like, and then I get in this like, epic internal dialogue, as everything is happening, and it gives me another level. So I guess I just, that's like, how I come at it, typically. Right.

Elle 35:37
I think I think we're talking about something very similar. I think we're just like sort of looking at it from very different perspective. But I think that the end result is probably very close to the sea. Yeah. So what's your favorite steamy moment and literature? Would that be season one, episode seven?

Katie 35:54
Um, I'm definitely definitely yes. It's not even a hard question. Yeah. I listened to it on audio. It was incredible.

Elle 36:12
On the page, not just on this on the screen, like even on the page are good lately

Katie 36:17
Absolutely. I think that that's some, although I will say this. So I listened to I think I'm on like my sixth audio book in the Outlander series. And, and then Diana Gabaldon wrote, like how to the, you know, the anatomy of a sexy and how to write good sex on paper, whatever. Yeah. Okay. So this is why so I actually produced an audiobook of one of my novellas, and I hired a narrator because I had just listened to today and a golden like, narrate her own book. And it was so horrifying. That I was like, really? Like, wow, just because your sister ship does stars like you should hire that out, man. It was

Elle 36:57
so like, she was not good at reading her own show.

Katie 37:00
It was so horrifying that you should find an excerpt and included on this podcast. It was horrifying. Yeah,

Elle 37:08
really? Yeah. And this was for her how to write the SEC, it was

Katie 37:10
at least I couldn't even listen to what she was on sexy because I was like, wow, this is my ovaries have shriveled up. And it's over. Not that her regular narrator has some like sex pot voice but just her voice is like, and if you're wondering how to write a good sex scene, well, the first step is like that. You're like, well, that's, that's scratchy. So um,

Elle 37:36
I did read that and it's in voice training. Yeah, well,

Katie 37:38
I think she just needs to hire it out. You know, we can't be good at everything. And that's great to know.

Elle 37:47
Yeah, I think I think nonfiction like nonfiction. There's a lot of pressure to read it yourself. Yeah, like seriously every nonfiction but I don't listen to a lot of audiobooks. I prefer reading it doesn't I space out. Like if I'm listening to something I just I my imagination goes I daydream I go someplace else. And then I've next thing you know, I've missed half the book. So I don't listen to a lot of audio. Yeah. But the nonfiction audio that I have listened to has always been narrated by the author. Oh, God. It's a thing.

Katie 38:17
It was almost enough for me to just not not finish. Actually. I don't think I had finished it. Oh, wow. It was really painful. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I was like, I would rather like Margaret Atwood narrated this. Like I just I just finished her masterclass and was like, that would be better than this. Like I can't I can't keep on this. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So okay, not recommend that definitely buy it. Don't don't get an audible for sure.

Elle 38:44
Yeah. Let's see. So, I want to let's jump into your steamy scene on now. This is from nearly her which is coming out July 31. So by the time this podcast airs, it will it will be out. And this is the harlequin book Correct?

Katie 39:01
No, this is my no this is my sequel. Yeah. Okay, I'm

Elle 39:05
sorry. So the harlequin okay, I was a little bit confused. So walk me through your books. Now. This is going to be your sequel. This is the the twinning book. Yeah, this is the Yeah, the twins. And that self published the harlequins are the Western. Yeah.

Katie 39:19
So I wrote to two Westerns for Harlequin desires. So I'm still waiting on my pub date for a Cowboys inheritance. Okay, gotta and I'm working on Book Two behind already who? And this will be I think launching next year, but we'll see.

Elle 39:35
Okay, and so for nearly her and its cohort, is this a duet? Or do you have other things planned in the series?

Katie 39:44
Well, I haven't developed to start a boss and I have a third one nearly never after that. We'll watch this fall.

Elle 39:51
Oh, cool. Okay, so this is kind of ongoing. Yes, there's more than two.

Katie 39:56
I'm too obsessed. Yeah. I'm thinking that nearly never after is going to be steamy.

Elle 40:04
Now that you've had the experience

Katie 40:05
now that was to toe in Macomb.

Elle 40:09
Cool. Okay, and it's all making sense. Okay, so this is from this is

Katie 40:17
from her so curious about which section you're going to read.

Elle 40:23
Alright, well, here we go. Okay. Oh, and I'm sorry, can you set this up for us? I should have you set this up we've got on Jill and oh my god, I've just lost his name. And then yeah, Jill and Ben, and this is the first time together, correct?

Katie 40:38
No. Oh, it depends which one's your which one you're gonna read? Oh, yeah, I'm starting with cedarwood and geranium. That is chapter 11. So that is their first time together. Yeah. So basically, Jill is a twin to Ellie, and Ellie has a mountain of medical debt, having survived three run ins with brain cancer. Jill feels like a kind of a responsibility as the twin who didn't get sick to help her sister or pay the bill. She was a part time model until she stopped getting bookings. And she decided to try and get a job as an executive assistant. Of course, she didn't have a very good, like she dropped out of school to be a model. So when she was put on the spot in her temp agency, she tried on her sister's resume because Ellie went to university. And anyway, she talked her way into a job as an executive assistant to Ben, she was hired by the CEO who is trying to set Ben up for untoward behavior and offered an $80,000 bonus if she managed to get some kind of, you know, proof that he was, you know, having sexual harassment, whatever, anything that could unseat him from the board. And wow, but in the in the meantime, she gets to know Ben and really has feelings for him and wonders, like if there's maybe something going on with the, you know, the managing partner and all the rest of it. So this is about halfway through. There's a whole second hook and it's pretty confusing, but in a nutshell.

Elle 42:13
In a nutshell, this is what trope does this fall under is it's like a billionaire kind of trope, or, I mean, and it's also mistaken identity. Sorta,

Katie 42:23
yeah, there's, there's a lot of tropes because basically, in nearly her, Jill, there's like another really another billionaire, of course, who comes into the diner where she works. And she's been kind of obsessing over her Jill's twin, Ellie. And Jill comes in at the beginning of this book, end of newlywed because this book is takes place at exactly the same time is really weird, but it's from Jill's perspective. And Jill comes in and says, oh, there's that that really rich guy. I'm going to go over there and I'm going to finagle a date with him. It's got a different socialite on his arm every week, like why not me, one of us should get in on this. So she basically financials, marriage of convenience with Luke Hamilton, in both books, and then ends up on the day of the wedding, which is I think in chapter 10 passing it off and saying to Ellie, look, how can a marriage of convenience be inconvenient? For me, like this is supposed to be convenient, but it's not. So you be if you want to marry this billionaire and get rid of your, you know, medical debt, go for it, but I'm in love with someone else. Even though she's not quite in love with Ben at this point, she just wants out of the out of the responsibility of marrying Luke. So um, she does that and Ellie pretends to be Jill. So of course, Jill has to pretend to be Ellie. And there it is.

Elle 43:41
Wow. Okay, I'm good. I know, I'm probably you're gonna be like read the book. But do they have to keep up the like, do they have it feels like they have trade? Yeah, completely traded identities for the rest of their lives? Or does it all come out? In the end, they keep

Katie 43:53
it up for quite some time. And like, right at the end and that dark moment? You know, there's these different people that come in and sort of tear it all down. And, and yeah, so would give it away. Wow. You know, Jill is sort of the antagonist in in newlywed, and you kind of hate her. And people like, what's a bit a bit risky? Like, you know, making your second book about like, your most hated character, Jill, but um, that's what I did. So this is her her story. And what happens on the other side of what happened with her anyway, so, okay,

Elle 44:25
okay, there we go. He's led a hand to her side, the hot Wait a brand to her posture, she felt a thumb stroke against the side of her hip and wondered for a brief moment if the touch was imagined. She had had several beers, although it had been a while since her last alcoholic one. I think I'm done for the night. I must be getting old. This place is feeling a little loud. He straightened with the admission and pulls his hand from her side. Her hip felt naked without the weight of his touch. And she slit her own hand to cover the spot on her skin has touched branded, it was a poor replacement. Maybe it was the of the night, maybe it was seeing him outside of work dressed like sex on a stick. But right now, she wanted him more than she could ever remember wanting anyone. I thought that this moment was super sensual. Like, even just even. It's so simple. And there's really not much happening here. But there was still a real sensuality on this. And I was it just reminded me how much I love romance beginnings. Like when it's all tentative, and it's a little weird, you know? And you're kind of like, Is this okay? Is this not okay? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do here. And I kind of felt like this really nailed that moment.

Katie 45:37
I like I talk about this a lot in all the books that I read, there's always that line that someone's crossing. And to me, it's kind of like, Can I do this? Can I go further? What happens if I go here? And especially you have to imagine that she's working as his assistant. So you know, that touches is really unprofessional and illicit? And does definitely make it hotter? I mean, for sure. Give me all the illicit did I can have please, this? Definitely what I like to allude to for sure.

Elle 46:11
Yeah. Yeah, it was really cool. And like I said, like, I love that sort of tentative nature of it. I mean, I guess because like, we know where it's going, you know. But at the same time, it's sort of it was still this sort of, like, ooh, like, this is really sensual. And really, like, nice. Like, I was just kind of like that tension started, like that, sort of like, I think the moment where the tension started to creep.

Katie 46:34
For me, I definitely. I definitely don't read enough. I think that's probably a problem, because I'm so focused on my output. And I'm also always nervous that I'll get too influenced when I read somebody else's stuff that I might, you know, somehow subconsciously repeat that or be too affected by what I'm reading to lose my own original voice or whatever you what have you. But I do think it is like, you know, you're saying, oh, send me send me a steamy scene. And I was like, I don't even know if my steamy scenes are steamy enough. But then like, I think they are but I don't even know. You know, so I

Elle 47:11
mean, it's all relative, right? Like some one person steam is another person's porn or another person's like, What are you talking about? That's to like, they wish no sex there, you know? And I like I stand by like, I've like some of the sexiest I guess maybe it's not the best word. But most intimate stuff I've read are not necessarily sex on a page. I think that you can write intimacy really well without without actually showing anything.

Katie 47:38
Well, it's funny because when I was talking to the this woman at, at Harlequin with Stacey, the editor I'm working with I said to her, I don't know because it has to fit my I think what's what I don't like I can tell what I don't like what I don't like is when you get to a sex scene, and it's like someone else wrote it. You know, it's completely completely disjointed from the rest of the narrative. So I feel like it has to fit, you know, the verbiage has to fit everything has to be in the same tone and the same pacing and I like even when it's similar structure and beats and stuff like that. And so I said to her, like, I don't know if, if how I'm going to do this is going to be explicit enough for you. Like nothing's pulsing, nothing's throbbing like, I don't know. I don't know if that's gonna work for Harlequin. And she said, you know, send it over. Let's see. And then then there you go. Okay, yeah.

Elle 48:33
So well, so now I think we have left this event or function or whatever it is that they're at and we are now at his place. You know, you're still waiting. Oh, god, okay. I'm ready for a drink my apartments not that large. She's like, okay, here I go. Alright, so now we're going to his apartment. Ben stalled at the entrance in Jill took a step toward him. Let me help you with that she reached for his neck tie before waiting for permission loosening the knot. Thanks. He managed throatily. Her fingers brushed against the hollow of his throat. Don't kiss him first. She warned herself. There was no worse than even if the prickly stubble of his jaw was all the temptation she could manage. Can I get you something? His voice was warm and rough in the shadows. She pulled the edges of her pashmina against her body in a defensive cocoon. Yep, this was a terrible idea. All the best ones were I'll have whatever you want. She managed amazed she was able to articulate a response, let alone a hot one. All she could do was hope that he wanted the same thing. Then turned and walked toward the living space motioning for her to follow. Again, this is super sexy without any sex going on. Yeah, so you know, this is where I was like, okay, like this. This is a serious slow burn because you are sort of like taking. You're taking them up the hill. We're moving towards that climate.

Katie 49:55
It's like good to me now. Come on. cut that

Elle 50:05
right like you cut I mean, if you did it wouldn't it wouldn't it wouldn't be that slow burn. Yeah, yeah. You know you wouldn't have it you absolutely wouldn't have it. So I was like, oh my god, this is great.

Katie 50:18
You know, they're going there. They're going for it. Oh, God.

Elle 50:22
I know where we're going. I totally know where we're going. Okay, so we're almost there. So um, yeah, this is this is their this is their night and she's having all these questions right where she cheating on Luke? No, Luke wasn't hers. You know? Bends what matters. Okay. goes. I want you to Ben she finally admitted sometimes the best way to get on with the truth is to move on from the lie. Sure, she wasn't Ellie. But she was also more herself than she'd been in her whole life. Nothing about how much she wanted him was a lie. It was the only truth with consequence. His hand slid down her back sliding under her camisole hot against her skin, the fingers, a brand hot and possessive. Then it started the reign of kisses starting at the spot on her neck most men ignored. Not then, the hollow of her neck proved a particular temptation for her boss. His lips were hot and Jill felt the wet trail of tongue tasting her from the collarbone to lips. Fingers skimmed over her skirt tracing the swell of her breasts slightly tantalizing her leaving her panting. She wished you would grab her take her fast. His kiss was strong ensure tempting that being overbearing, a few steps forward and he was pulling her camisole over her head. It didn't even occur to her to stop him. It would be like fighting gravity requiring the strength that would defy science defy chemistry. Oh, hi. Yah. Yah love that she wished she would grab her take her fast. No, no, that's not what she's doing, though. That's not gonna happen. Wait, everybody is torturing you. That's not how it happens here. And again, it was like, that's such a slow burn. I think that, um, I think that, you know, I sort of like, jumped down. And I know that you had sent me kind of a couple of different scenes. And so I'm not sure. Hold on, let me say, like, I like they've, I think they've already had.

Katie 52:27
Yeah, I took one. So then I so basically, they decide so she's worried the next morning. So after this scene, you know, she wakes up. And she is immediately doubting how this is going to affect her and how everything is gonna, you know, is she going to judge her? And, you know, was this horrible? What does this mean? And so she says, let's pretend this never happened. You know, because she doesn't. She doesn't want him to say it first. You know, it's kind of again, that power. Like if I'm the one who who doesn't want it, you know what I mean? Then then that kind of makes it okay. Right? And, and so they pretend it didn't happen for six or seven chapters. And then they then they find themselves stuck in this castle, or I don't know what the second scene I sent you is maybe they find themselves when they fall off the horse, let's say and then they decide to just lean in and get back on the horse as many times as they want.

Elle 53:19
I'm sorry, my bad. I actually think this might be still they haven't had sex yet. Now, I can't even remember where this was. Because if this was the first time it took a took a bit, it took a bit. Yeah.

Katie 53:33
It goes on a lot of pages. It goes. Yeah, agents. Yeah. Okay, so

Elle 53:38
let me still be the

Katie 53:39
first time I don't know. It's a whole chapter. Like 3500 words of them doing it. So I don't know. Y'all. I'm

Elle 53:45
taking you to your pay off. Don't worry. I'm taking you there. preamble. He sheets himself surprised by his own hardness. He wanted her perhaps more than he'd wanted any other woman before. You mean visit? Okay. I think that what confused me is now we're in his head.

Katie 54:02
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I changed halfway through. Yeah,

Elle 54:06
yeah. Okay. Yeah. You mean business Lea propped your way up onto onto elbows taking in the view because he thinks she's elderly. Yeah, he's shuttered as a long limb lifted, crawling around his back. Not all the time. But yes, right now I'm quite serious, he marveled at the truth of it. He had never been less and more into business at the same time. She was a paradox. Her hands reached behind his neck and with the strength he hadn't expected pulled him toward her. He fell on her pressing her body into the Devey. If only had more than two hands to touch her more than one mouth to worship her. All his faculties felt insufficient, but he was ready to offer her every effort. serious are you then her voice now infused with a husky timbre spoke into his neck, lips brushing against his skin with an electric fanaticism that fueled him to distraction. Her breath was hot against him as he claimed her mouth. She met his enthusiasm with a raw hunger of her own And it drove him to distraction. When he took her he swore the profanity of perfect juxtaposition to Holy experience, her tight center a siren call to his libido slick with her need of Him. He tried to think of anything else to distract himself from the roiling build of lust in art or order, of hunger and protectiveness of need. But there was to be no distraction from his want of her no possible release other than hers. And when it came a spasming shake that threatened the resolve, he clung to, he drove further, the shattering finish was met with a second cry from her fingers tightened in his hair pulling at him. I need you, he admitted, he admitted. Where had that come from? So this is a really closed door here.

Katie 55:43
Yeah. This was me trying to be

Elle 55:46
me. I mean, it worked. I mean, you know, it's like,

Katie 55:55
this is literally me trying to see me this is what I sold Arlequin I can't go this is this is a steamy as I'm able to do at this moment.

Elle 56:04
But it's pretty damn steamy. I mean, we have the act, you haven't closed the door. Like, you know, there's just not a lot like you said of like, you know, you're not pointing out where the pieces go.

Katie 56:13
Yeah, I tried to avoid that. Um, but I mean, yeah, I mean, they're, I mean, they're having sex here. I hope that's obvious. That's not obvious. I haven't done my job. I would hope that people would get that together again, like, this shouldn't be in the in a children's library, you know, or even a young adult library? I would hope.

Elle 56:38
So, okay, so in this one, you were trying to write this, you know, the first book, right? This is their this is literally

Katie 56:43
a CD. I don't know, like, this is a lot steamier than than the first book, The first book should have probably sent it to you. But it's, it probably would have ended. You know, like after the first thing that you read. Oh, wow. For example. Yeah.

Elle 56:59
Oh, wow. You wouldn't have brought it any further than she probably would have woken up

Katie 57:02
the next mile like no, what did that just mean? Yeah. Wow.

Elle 57:08
So did you write this specifically? Because you had been writing the harlequins? Or did you just make a decision for this book that you are going to be more a little bit more graphic,

Katie 57:16
I got some feedback from from some, like arc readers who read newlywed who loved it. And we're like, Okay, we're gonna give this five stars because we loved it. But like, it really kind of led us on there. We would like to just see that finish a little bit more, you know, and so, I kind of had that in the back of my mind. And then I then I wrote the harlequin and I, I was, you know, I was pretty open with Stacy, because I was worried that TierPoint like, you know that you just read it. That's about as steamy as I get. I don't know, like if people said, How would you rate that? I don't know, was that like, a five out of 10? Is that a seven? Like, I struggle with understanding how to read a thing. But I kind of okay, I'm going to try and write a scene for Harlequin. And it worked for them because they said, you know, they're, you know, they're rebranding, they're doing whatever it is, you know, I don't know. But, but for this one, I also thought that Jill is a lot more confident like this character, you know, she was a model, she feels really good about how she looks. And so it makes a lot of sense for her to lead with her body, you know, because that's, she's kind of, you know, just really confident. So I thought okay, let's, how about it be naked naked all the time. Go for No, so now I have I have like a really cool street team. I mean, very small, but very cool street team that are you know, telling me you need to read this, you need to read that. I have the holiday coming up. So maybe I will put my own writing aside and try and read some other steam scenes and see if I get closer. I listened to several of your podcasts. So you know try and yeah, I mean, I guess

Elle 59:00
it's sort of like it's where your comfort level is, you know, like what are you comfortable writing you know, what works for the book what works for the characters? You know, and and to a degree what works for your publisher as well you know, if you're if you are working you know, traditionally Yeah, so um, you know, I think that I mean, I've been hearing in terms of like the market sweet romance is where it's at right now. People are tired of reading all the dirty the dirty book.

Katie 59:22
I don't know if I can write sweet romance because like, I do a lot of newsletter swaps. I have a pretty pretty bitchin newsletter everybody, so you should definitely check that out. But um, you know, a lot of people won't swap with me because I'm not clean. Right? Like clean romance is like clean like, Oh God, my readers would be horrified by your you know, dirty book and I'm like, Okay, calm down. It's not dirty. I don't even think nearly her is dirty, to be honest. I mean, I'll just read it. It's fine. But I don't know like I've read some dirty shit you know? And I love it. Like give me all the all this out there. I'm here for it and I I guess but but yeah, I mean, so it's also for like swapping with people. It's it's kind of like nearly her isn't this kind of weird space in between being, you know, really, really explicit and not explicit. Same is worse with newlywed because it's like, not quite fade to black but almost a little bit I don't know. I thought I'd rather just, you know, like nearly wet isn't a place where like people who like sweet or clean romance would be offended and people who like not like people who like more explicit romance would be like that's not enough for us. So I thought like I need to like pick aside just for like AdWords and being able to like like, I mean, I don't even know like, how would I know it's a problem so I thought okay for nearly her I'm gonna put it on the page and you know, see where it goes. So yeah, that's the end Yes. Yeah, I know sweets more popular but God

Elle 1:00:59
that's only been recent. There's just been it's just been a pendulum swing. That's all I mean, it really has you know, it has a you know, and the pendulum will eventually swing back I am your

Katie 1:01:09
I like it less to read and like, I'm reading my own book, like 100 million times before I publish it and like, I don't want to keep reading so I don't know. I. Yeah, I'm going to the dark side. I'll talk to the year okay. In a year, I'll write something that you you'll blush reading Okay. Excuse me typo. I

Elle 1:01:31
don't know I have an episode coming up that has super graphic anal sex going on. I don't have to reading that out loud. I don't think there's much that

Katie 1:01:42
maybe I'll write something that'll make me blush for you to

Elle 1:01:51
sort of like at this point with this podcast now where I'm like, Yeah, top that. I mean, I don't know sex with a corpse. Maybe that'll do it. I have absolutely no idea. But that's kind of where we're headed. Six Feet Under. Luck in my series. Oh, so Okay, so nearly her coming out July 31. Like I said, it will already be out there in the world. By the time this podcast goes live now, where can people find you on the internet or social media? Where Where do you like to be all like, what's your favorite?

Katie 1:02:28
So? Oh, my God, I know that, like all the cool kids are on tick tock. And, like, I know that and I'm like, Oh, God, I can't so I tried to tick tock video. It's so embarrassing, please, you know, so hard, do not look at it. And I'm gonna say my handle because it's just so embarrassing. But I know that that's where I should be where I actually am is on Instagram, my comfortable little universe. Romans in the Alps. It's very comfortable. Right now I'm doing my my stuff on gifts on Amazon. So all the books are dropping in Kindle Unlimited. And it's pretty fun. And we'll see how we'll see if I branch into wide but right now, like I say, I'm trying to rapid release both traditionally and India at the same time. So basically this writing track Yeah, I just have to track start to see how much can I write and how fast

Elle 1:03:26
and that's and that's working the full time job and the kids? Yeah, husband? Well,

Katie 1:03:29
I started, I started dictating, which was huge. Oh, really? How is that? Yeah, it's amazing. It's really, really, I was worried about it. Because I I, like I'm a Mac person. And I read that dragon, which is like, the number one thing out there, like isn't compatible with Mac. And I was also worried that like, sometimes I'm a big Panster like, I don't always know, like, where it's gonna go. And sometimes, like somehow I'm just writing without thinking about what I'm just like, yeah, making it happen on the page. So it's really concerned about like, is that gonna fuck up and what's gonna happen? And, and finally, I was like, No, I'm doing it. Say I was I watched like a thing from Maisie gates. I don't know if you know her. She's done. 130 books so far, like when she's pretty young, too. And she started dictating, because she was getting carpal tunnel, and I was like, Okay, and so I tried it. And yeah, it's amazing. I probably won't go back.

Elle 1:04:28
How big was the learning curve, but like, I don't, I'm always like, you should try dictating. And I'm like, no, no, I just feel like I need to

Katie 1:04:35
do that was me. That was me. And you were that you know, like sitting there definitely try dictating. Yeah, no, I mean, I I'm probably as you know, I'm obviously not a techie at all, as evidenced by this. But I'm how I have dragon open on my screen and I'm talking and watching the words come in front of me. Okay, you know, so I can, like Correct. Like, whatever it is. to come up correctly, but it's just a lot faster. Okay. And I mean any kind of correctness. And by the way, like I'm a super fast typer like not to toot my own horn, but like I live in front of my computers. So it's not like, I thought to myself, I won't dictate because that's useless. I'm so fast at typing, but I'm a lot faster at talking.

Elle 1:05:20
How wild and so does dragon go into it into Microsoft Word like, where does it go? Yeah, it

Katie 1:05:27
goes in Scrivener. So I write in Scrivener, or go it does go in script. Yeah. Okay. Or Google Docs. It also works in Google Docs. So those are the two places I'm usually writing. Like, I write my me draft in Scrivener, and I transferred over to Google Docs. And I have Yeah, like my critique partners, you know, and my editor on Google Docs, and I can move back and forth. But yeah, it works on both. I would, I would say it's a must. For me now.

Elle 1:05:50
Yeah. Okay. Maybe, maybe I'll give it a shot.

Katie 1:05:53
You know what I bought it? Do you have a PC or a Mac? I have a Mac? Yeah. So then what you need to do is you need to buy an older version of Dragon. I'll email you the link, but it's if you get an older one, I think it was 100 bucks for me because I didn't get the the most new version isn't compatible. So you have some correcting to do as you go along. Right. But if you have Grammarly or just even a, like a word correction, like I don't know, mind immediately like underlines when it's incorrect. I just click on it left click as marking and correct as I go. And there's definitely a learning curve of learning to say like, comma, period, you know, but you do have to do that. Yeah, I was curious. Yeah, you have to do that. And it sucks. And I haven't worked out how to say quotation mark yet. It just keeps quotation mark, which like sucks. So now I just like put quotation mark with my fingers. But it's kind of cool because I can like, lie on my bed and like talk to my computer and just like put quotation marks as I go. So So that's funny. So my next CV scenes should be a lot better.

Elle 1:06:56
Like writing a steamy scene, like out loud while you're kidding that that's gonna be wild. Really,

Katie 1:07:02
really embarrassing when the nannies working?

Elle 1:07:06
Shit. Yeah, the court

Katie 1:07:07
was great for us. Great. He kissed her softly. The firm touch of blah, blah, blah. No, it's great. I highly recommend it. Also, I've been drinking so.

Elle 1:07:27
So that helps.

Katie 1:07:28
It helps. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just go into oblivion. It'll be fine. Yeah, definitely check it out. And the older version, I think I have dragon six but it's great. Yeah.

Elle 1:07:38
Okay. All right. Because I think I tried dragon once like, I mean, eons ago, like we're talking years and I was like, Yeah, this isn't working for me. And I like really gave up very very quickly.

Katie 1:07:47
I was just like, this has to work because if I'm going to keep up with this kind of work like this kind of output you know, there's no way yeah. So

Elle 1:07:55
is it how long did it take you maybe to like get into the swing of that?

Katie 1:07:59
I just started like two weeks ago. I don't know I dictate write 3500 words in like an hour yesterday. So Whoa.

Elle 1:08:07
Yeah, that is worth

Katie 1:08:09
a try. Yeah. Took me a bit but stick in there. Anyway.

Elle 1:08:15
Katie, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate you taking the time. Oh,

Katie 1:08:18
thanks for having me. And I hope I was steamy enough for you.

Elle 1:08:24
We like all levels here. We love all levels. We are happy to not discriminate on the anal play.

Katie 1:08:31
Reverse harem

Elle 1:08:41
perfect. I look forward to that.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai